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	<title>Comments on: Objectivity is impossible</title>
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	<lastBuildDate>Tue, 24 Jan 2012 23:12:41 +0000</lastBuildDate>
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		<title>By: Chad Phillips</title>
		<link>http://mythoughtworld.com/862/objectivity-is-impossible/comment-page-1/#comment-15098</link>
		<dc:creator>Chad Phillips</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 24 Jan 2012 22:58:53 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://mythoughtworld.com/?p=862#comment-15098</guid>
		<description>Hi Mike,
Thanks for playing. That was a beautiful rhetorical tap dance you did there and actually agree with at least one of your &quot;facts.&quot; The one stating &quot;that which is subjective CAN be tainted by bias, it is not completely true that it always is.&quot; Of course. That was never my argument and if that were all you had to say on the matter, we could call it quits, because I agree 100% on that point. But then...you continued and went on to state at least a dozen truth claims as objective reality. And that is precisely the problem. You committed the same error my friend did...along with countless others who have all drank from the same well. The problem is thus: Whenever you make a truth claim such as: It is the case that &quot;the idea that any of us have access to objective truth is patently absurd,&quot; you make a statement which fails to satisfy its own requirements for validity. Thus the statement vanishes in a puff of self refuting smoke. Since I already explained this in a comment which preceded yours, I don&#039;t expect you to get it. But perhaps someone else who hasn&#039;t been taught that you can make sense out of nonsense will understand and move on from this fractured epistemological paradigm into the light of rationality. And now I must bid you adieu. I wish you well.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Hi Mike,<br />
Thanks for playing. That was a beautiful rhetorical tap dance you did there and actually agree with at least one of your &#8220;facts.&#8221; The one stating &#8220;that which is subjective CAN be tainted by bias, it is not completely true that it always is.&#8221; Of course. That was never my argument and if that were all you had to say on the matter, we could call it quits, because I agree 100% on that point. But then&#8230;you continued and went on to state at least a dozen truth claims as objective reality. And that is precisely the problem. You committed the same error my friend did&#8230;along with countless others who have all drank from the same well. The problem is thus: Whenever you make a truth claim such as: It is the case that &#8220;the idea that any of us have access to objective truth is patently absurd,&#8221; you make a statement which fails to satisfy its own requirements for validity. Thus the statement vanishes in a puff of self refuting smoke. Since I already explained this in a comment which preceded yours, I don&#8217;t expect you to get it. But perhaps someone else who hasn&#8217;t been taught that you can make sense out of nonsense will understand and move on from this fractured epistemological paradigm into the light of rationality. And now I must bid you adieu. I wish you well.</p>
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		<title>By: Mike</title>
		<link>http://mythoughtworld.com/862/objectivity-is-impossible/comment-page-1/#comment-15070</link>
		<dc:creator>Mike</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 01 Jan 2012 07:13:22 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://mythoughtworld.com/?p=862#comment-15070</guid>
		<description>The assumption you make when assuming that your friend &quot;saws off his own branch&quot; is that only the objective is worthy of being believed.  In other words the subjective notion is false because it is tainted by bias.  This is an especially weak assumption however.  That which is subjective CAN be tainted by bias, it is not completely true that it always is.  Anything requiring perception is inherently subjective, and there is plenty perceived that is as it is perceived.  All human endeavors really require some degree of subjectivity, and all human experiences, including those which would lead you to believe that certain beliefs are objectively true are also Dependant on subjectivity.    That is not to say that the world exists as we interpret it.  It is instead to say that there is a total objective truth.  We can never completely know it.  There are subjective truths in line with objective truth, and subjective falsehoods that are not in line with objective truth.  Based on what we know about cognitive science, the idea that any of us have access to objective truth is patently absurd.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The assumption you make when assuming that your friend &#8220;saws off his own branch&#8221; is that only the objective is worthy of being believed.  In other words the subjective notion is false because it is tainted by bias.  This is an especially weak assumption however.  That which is subjective CAN be tainted by bias, it is not completely true that it always is.  Anything requiring perception is inherently subjective, and there is plenty perceived that is as it is perceived.  All human endeavors really require some degree of subjectivity, and all human experiences, including those which would lead you to believe that certain beliefs are objectively true are also Dependant on subjectivity.    That is not to say that the world exists as we interpret it.  It is instead to say that there is a total objective truth.  We can never completely know it.  There are subjective truths in line with objective truth, and subjective falsehoods that are not in line with objective truth.  Based on what we know about cognitive science, the idea that any of us have access to objective truth is patently absurd.</p>
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		<title>By: Chad Phillips</title>
		<link>http://mythoughtworld.com/862/objectivity-is-impossible/comment-page-1/#comment-14599</link>
		<dc:creator>Chad Phillips</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 04 Feb 2011 04:13:27 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://mythoughtworld.com/?p=862#comment-14599</guid>
		<description>It&#039;s quite alright James. We closed this site as of December 31st 2010, but you&#039;re welcome to read or comment as you like for as long as the blog remains up. 

That said, I agree with you....the wiki explanation is weak. I know you didn&#039;t mean it that way, but I couldn&#039;t resist turning your opening statement on it&#039;s head. The problem with explanations/arguments against objectivity is always the same. They fail to satisfy their own requirements for truth, thus (conveniently) committing suicide. If objectivity is something which can&#039;t be centered around a sentient creature, then how in God&#039;s name do we know that such a statement is objectively true? The answer is, we can&#039;t....and if we can&#039;t know it... because the writers of said drivel are, in fact, tainted at their sources, then there&#039;s no reason to believe that the statement is true. If it&#039;s not objectively true, then why are they violating their own principle in stating that it is? Either objectivity is possible or it isn&#039;t. If it isn&#039;t, then they should be more tentative in their explanation. A more logically consistent explanation would involve using the conditionals &quot;may,&quot; maybe,&quot; &quot;uncertain,&quot; and so forth. You have to admit, it&#039;s quite humorous to see them stating their view that objectivity is impossible...but stating it as an objective reality which is irrefutable. I&#039;m still laughing about that. But it is Wikipedia; I wouldn&#039;t expect anything less from them.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>It&#8217;s quite alright James. We closed this site as of December 31st 2010, but you&#8217;re welcome to read or comment as you like for as long as the blog remains up. </p>
<p>That said, I agree with you&#8230;.the wiki explanation is weak. I know you didn&#8217;t mean it that way, but I couldn&#8217;t resist turning your opening statement on it&#8217;s head. The problem with explanations/arguments against objectivity is always the same. They fail to satisfy their own requirements for truth, thus (conveniently) committing suicide. If objectivity is something which can&#8217;t be centered around a sentient creature, then how in God&#8217;s name do we know that such a statement is objectively true? The answer is, we can&#8217;t&#8230;.and if we can&#8217;t know it&#8230; because the writers of said drivel are, in fact, tainted at their sources, then there&#8217;s no reason to believe that the statement is true. If it&#8217;s not objectively true, then why are they violating their own principle in stating that it is? Either objectivity is possible or it isn&#8217;t. If it isn&#8217;t, then they should be more tentative in their explanation. A more logically consistent explanation would involve using the conditionals &#8220;may,&#8221; maybe,&#8221; &#8220;uncertain,&#8221; and so forth. You have to admit, it&#8217;s quite humorous to see them stating their view that objectivity is impossible&#8230;but stating it as an objective reality which is irrefutable. I&#8217;m still laughing about that. But it is Wikipedia; I wouldn&#8217;t expect anything less from them.</p>
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		<title>By: James Aldrich</title>
		<link>http://mythoughtworld.com/862/objectivity-is-impossible/comment-page-1/#comment-14594</link>
		<dc:creator>James Aldrich</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 16 Jan 2011 21:40:55 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://mythoughtworld.com/?p=862#comment-14594</guid>
		<description>I know im very late with this, but ive been researching for an essay and came across your blog. I totally disagree, this has to be one of the weakest arguments for objectivity i have come across. This is a part of the current draft of my eassy:
 
Objectivity is a central and elusive philosophical category proposing to deal “with facts Without distortion by personal feelings or prejudices” (Penguin 2002:607). A proposition is generally considered to be objectively true when its truth conditions are not the result of any judgments made by a conscious entity or subject. (Wiki). In light of this the idea of a ‘reality’ or ‘truth’ comes in to question. According to the theory of Objectivism “reality is mind-independent, it is thus inclusive of objects that are unknown and not the subject of intentionality” (Wiki). Moreover, truth is considered “the state of being in accord with a particular fact or reality.” (Wiki). The idea of a single, indisputable reality, and thus objectivism, is impossible for us to prove or percieve. Any proposition or observation has to be made through human means “in which both feeling and logical categories are necessarily human inventions.” (Benson 2002:266). For this reason the theory of objectivity will remain elusive and unprovable as this is a clearly impossible state.

In contrast, subjectivity is a theory which describes a state “relating to, determined by, or arising from the mind or self” (Penguin 2002:890). A much more widely accepted theory over objectivity, which refers to the qualia which is only available to each individuals consciousness. It suggests that all knowing; Theories, philosophies, observations, understandings, “every concept we have about the world is based on human or individual perspective.” (Wiki) Although the cause of each individual experience is believed to be ‘objectively’ available to each individual, the theory states that the experience will be unique to the individual as it will be processed through their unique state of knowing. Subjectivity is within itself the only truth despite assumptions about subjective &quot;truths&quot; we make. The creation of philosophies is within itself subjective, along with the concept of discovery or creation of ideas.

Still a little rough but does the job :)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I know im very late with this, but ive been researching for an essay and came across your blog. I totally disagree, this has to be one of the weakest arguments for objectivity i have come across. This is a part of the current draft of my eassy:</p>
<p>Objectivity is a central and elusive philosophical category proposing to deal “with facts Without distortion by personal feelings or prejudices” (Penguin 2002:607). A proposition is generally considered to be objectively true when its truth conditions are not the result of any judgments made by a conscious entity or subject. (Wiki). In light of this the idea of a ‘reality’ or ‘truth’ comes in to question. According to the theory of Objectivism “reality is mind-independent, it is thus inclusive of objects that are unknown and not the subject of intentionality” (Wiki). Moreover, truth is considered “the state of being in accord with a particular fact or reality.” (Wiki). The idea of a single, indisputable reality, and thus objectivism, is impossible for us to prove or percieve. Any proposition or observation has to be made through human means “in which both feeling and logical categories are necessarily human inventions.” (Benson 2002:266). For this reason the theory of objectivity will remain elusive and unprovable as this is a clearly impossible state.</p>
<p>In contrast, subjectivity is a theory which describes a state “relating to, determined by, or arising from the mind or self” (Penguin 2002:890). A much more widely accepted theory over objectivity, which refers to the qualia which is only available to each individuals consciousness. It suggests that all knowing; Theories, philosophies, observations, understandings, “every concept we have about the world is based on human or individual perspective.” (Wiki) Although the cause of each individual experience is believed to be ‘objectively’ available to each individual, the theory states that the experience will be unique to the individual as it will be processed through their unique state of knowing. Subjectivity is within itself the only truth despite assumptions about subjective &#8220;truths&#8221; we make. The creation of philosophies is within itself subjective, along with the concept of discovery or creation of ideas.</p>
<p>Still a little rough but does the job <img src='http://mythoughtworld.com/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_smile.gif' alt=':)' class='wp-smiley' /> </p>
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		<title>By: Troglodad</title>
		<link>http://mythoughtworld.com/862/objectivity-is-impossible/comment-page-1/#comment-7810</link>
		<dc:creator>Troglodad</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 17 Oct 2008 17:38:57 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://mythoughtworld.com/?p=862#comment-7810</guid>
		<description>I disagree, Chadly, ole boy. Even if the robots were imperfect, they would still have the possible ability to objectively make a decision about humans, as they themselves are not humans. 

Take for example guys and girls. Girls cannot objectively judge how another girl looks- the claws come out in some form or another, due to an inherent competitiveness that all females have.

On the other hand, we guys- not being chicks ourselves- do indeed have the ability to objectively decided which gal looks the best. Why, we objectify women on a daily basis!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I disagree, Chadly, ole boy. Even if the robots were imperfect, they would still have the possible ability to objectively make a decision about humans, as they themselves are not humans. </p>
<p>Take for example guys and girls. Girls cannot objectively judge how another girl looks- the claws come out in some form or another, due to an inherent competitiveness that all females have.</p>
<p>On the other hand, we guys- not being chicks ourselves- do indeed have the ability to objectively decided which gal looks the best. Why, we objectify women on a daily basis!</p>
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		<title>By: Chad Phillips</title>
		<link>http://mythoughtworld.com/862/objectivity-is-impossible/comment-page-1/#comment-7784</link>
		<dc:creator>Chad Phillips</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 17 Oct 2008 01:41:47 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://mythoughtworld.com/?p=862#comment-7784</guid>
		<description>Alas, T.R. if the robots are designed by tainted humans then they too (the robots) must also be tainted. Of course, since my opinion that the humans and thus the robots are tainted is...uh, well...tainted, it would appear my friend may be right. Notice I didn&#039;t say that he is absolutely right, as that would imply some form of objectivity, which we all &quot;know&quot; I mean...uh, which in all probability is impossible...wait a minute, that means we can&#039;t know anything...or we at least we can&#039;t be certain. Oh crap! If that&#039;s true then we can&#039;t even be certain that we are certain....As my cartoon shows, the one thing the culture is certain of is that we CAN&#039;T be certain, which, of course is complete and utter nonsense. Like Socrates, you end up chasing your tail reductio ad absurdum.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Alas, T.R. if the robots are designed by tainted humans then they too (the robots) must also be tainted. Of course, since my opinion that the humans and thus the robots are tainted is&#8230;uh, well&#8230;tainted, it would appear my friend may be right. Notice I didn&#8217;t say that he is absolutely right, as that would imply some form of objectivity, which we all &#8220;know&#8221; I mean&#8230;uh, which in all probability is impossible&#8230;wait a minute, that means we can&#8217;t know anything&#8230;or we at least we can&#8217;t be certain. Oh crap! If that&#8217;s true then we can&#8217;t even be certain that we are certain&#8230;.As my cartoon shows, the one thing the culture is certain of is that we CAN&#8217;T be certain, which, of course is complete and utter nonsense. Like Socrates, you end up chasing your tail reductio ad absurdum.</p>
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		<title>By: Troglodad</title>
		<link>http://mythoughtworld.com/862/objectivity-is-impossible/comment-page-1/#comment-7765</link>
		<dc:creator>Troglodad</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 16 Oct 2008 13:04:46 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://mythoughtworld.com/?p=862#comment-7765</guid>
		<description>Ha, ha. Good one! 

What we need is an alien species to decide if humans can be objective. Or maybe robots. Shiney, chrome-plated ones. Surely- not being human- they could objectively decide if humans can be objective.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Ha, ha. Good one! </p>
<p>What we need is an alien species to decide if humans can be objective. Or maybe robots. Shiney, chrome-plated ones. Surely- not being human- they could objectively decide if humans can be objective.</p>
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